Virginia Vigliar
Thank you everyone for being here. I'm excited. This is such an important topic for me. My name is Virginia Vigliar, I'm the Head of Content and Programming at Advaya, and I'm really honored to be with Andreas here. Once again, we talked about playfulness in the summer, which was a really fun time, and today we're here to talk about love, and I'm really excited because it's so close to St. Valentine's Day, and I think it's important because we're living in quite divisive times. I don't want to be like a Negative Nelly, but it's the truth, and there's a lot of beauty and interconnectedness, but there’s also a lot of division, and it also feels to me that the concept of love has been kind of commodified and stolen sometimes, as you know, anyways, and I think it's really important to reclaim the world and to kind of bring back love to the center, to the heart.
Today's guest is Andreas. I will introduce him formally with his beautiful bio, and then I'll tell you something more about Andreas. So Andreas is a biologist, philosopher, nature writer, and mystic. He focuses on a reevaluation of our understanding of the living. He proposes to view and treat all organisms as subjects, and hence the biosphere as a meaning-creating and poetic reality. Andreas is a visiting professor at the Uni ESG in Polenso, Italy, and an honorary teacher at the University of the Arts in Berlin. He has published more than 15 books in the English language, most recently, Enlivenment: A Poetics for the Anthropocene and Sharing Life: The Eco-Politics of Reciprocity. Andreas has curated and taught one of our most successful courses, Ecology of Love, which we’re actually relaunching in a newly revitalized edition, enriching the learning journey with immersive visual and textural elements, creating a more holistic and sensorially engaging experience. And it’s coming out on Valentine's Day, so keep a lookout for that on your emails. He's also going to be teaching a course called Heart Wisdom, which explores the philosophy and mysticism of the heart in different cultures, and it’s coming in March, so it’s a really great time to speak with you, Andreas, and so welcome here. I hope you have the right clothing now. Don’t feel too hot or too cold.
So, I think I want to start by asking you what inspired you to dig into the work of love and the heart?
Andreas Weber
Yeah, wonderful. I’m afraid I don’t have to ask for more time for changing long underwear. But still, I’d like to do something preliminary. So, poor participants, I apologize, but this is important, and you will enjoy it.
First, I want to invite all the beings who are not human beings around us into our circle, and particularly my wonderful three mentors around my place, who are now only barely visible in the darkness, and who have actually given me so much, have given me so many gifts of life, who have been so loving. I want to include them. I want to ask them to be included. That’s one thing. And then I want to include you all a little bit more. I want to invite you to go to the sweet spot in your heart. It’s actually something very simple, and we don’t do this normally. So, maybe if you want, you can touch your heart.
It’s easy to find, it’s here. You don’t need to, because it’s still there. And then you breathe into this heart and try to feel this sweet spot. I can feel your heart. So, we’ll just do this a little bit because we also need to, of course, invite the heart into a conversation about love. What do I know? Only the heart knows. Okay. Thank you.
So now I’ll answer. I didn’t forget. I hope I try to answer. Yeah, so it’s a long story. Actually, it’s funny. For some reason, I never stopped perceiving this dimension of love as a state of being in my own life. I somehow didn’t stop. I remember very well as a child that everything was just incredibly luminous. And I also remember moments of bliss, actually, as a child, when for some reason, which is very interesting, when they came, I was always like, “Oh yes, yeah, there you are again. I know this.” I forgot, and then there was that again. So, I somehow knew this, and I really didn’t want to let go of this, which became very difficult through my education, through growing up, and through being in a world in which your ego needs to be fortified, or where the rule is that your ego needs to be a fortress. But somehow, I didn’t let go of this. So, I would say that’s really my life’s work, in a way. And, of course, my failures, my romantic failures made me very curious to understand better, and also my failures as a father made me curious to understand better. And also my bliss as a father made me understand something. So probably, actually, it’s my kids, my two, I have two kids who now are adults. It’s them who gave me most understanding, actually, maybe with the trees and all the other-than-human beings. Yeah.
So here we are. And then last thing, of course, important. At some point, I bumped into the Sufis, into the Sufi mystics, and then it became very palpable. Actually, love started to become very palpable for the Sufis. As you all know, for the Sufis, love is the gate through which you enter into the divine. That’s what goes through love because, in the end, there is nothing but love, and the Sufis even call God or the truth, or whatever name we might give for the beloved. It’s a love relationship. So that’s also very important. Okay, I hope I more or less could answer a little.
Virginia Vigliar
What part of having your children taught you the most about love? What was it? I just want to know.
Andreas Weber
Wonderful. Yes, that’s a wonderful question. The important thing about love is that I love. It’s about me giving. It’s not about me receiving. That’s the lesson they taught me. I mean, they—I shouldn’t make the impression that I really learned it very well. I should say that they inadvertently, unconsciously, tried to teach me, and I more or less could understand this. So, I don’t want to self-aggrandize, but that’s the absolutely central lesson in this phase of my life. That love is about loving and not about being loved. I mean, it’s also about being loved, but the first thing is that you have this power to provide other beings with life, and this... Sorry, now it starts... Did you already, when I changed my clothing, tell everybody?
Virginia Vigliar
I did! I said that we’re both not doing great today, but that we will use our heart to guide this.
Andreas Weber
Heart. The heart can do everything. So, I mean, I remember, I really remember this moment when somebody asked me, actually, “What is the biggest lesson about having kids?” Somebody who didn’t have kids at that point. And I said, “That my wish for them to live, to thrive, is totally unconditional.” And that was such a gift, you know? That was such an incredible gift. So, I don’t know if I probably would have started to try to learn this too, and my whole thinking, being, feeling, writing, even reorganized at this point. You can see this when this happened in my writing. And I even remember this moment, and that was actually a sort of mystical experience, really. I remember this moment when I was with my son. I was in Berlin, and I didn’t live in Berlin, where my family didn’t live in Berlin. I was in Berlin for some birthday with my little son. He was one year old, and we were in the flat of a friend. He was sleeping there in the twilight, totally peaceful. And then came this wave of bliss washing over me. And I was in this feeling. I was within this state that was absolutely incredible. I didn’t know this existed. So, you see, I’m very grateful. I’m very grateful. I don’t know, actually, if he even knows, probably not. I should tell him. Maybe he might be slightly embarrassed. “Hey, son, I really need to tell you a secret.”
Virginia Vigliar
I mean, it would be a beautiful thing to do, to tell him.
Andreas Weber
Of course, of course.
Virginia Vigliar
So, you started the conversation by calling in all the non-human beings. And I know that nature is such a huge part of your study of love. And in the course Ecology of Love, you speak so much about nature and the relations. So how does love manifest in the natural world?
Andreas Weber
For you, that is the question. That is the question. And that’s a question I’ve devoted a lot of work to. And it’s also a very challenging question, actually. Because, if you look into life, you might not only see love, but on the ground, there is only love. And that’s something I still, I’m still trying to understand, maybe now in a different way than I did before. First,
I wouldn’t say I try to avoid nature. Nature is often treated as an object, but it’s not an object. It’s a family of subjects, all the beings are persons, and they have rich inner experiences, desires, intentions to unfold, and so on. It’s a huge family of interrelated subjects. And now if you see it like this, you realize that every being gives life to another.
Flowers give the gift of food to insects. Trees give the gift of breath to us. So it’s a family. It’s a community. It’s an interrelated family that cares for each other. It’s not about a free market, or about a cruel society, it’s communion. Life is about giving the gift of life. That's my little trick.
Andreas Weber:
I don't think that we need to legitimize what we feel through scientific findings. It's dangerous because it limits them. But nevertheless, this research shows that, first, the heart also has a brain, which is very, very crazy. I didn't know. Actually, I had no idea. I mean, I'm a biologist, by certificate, but I didn't know. So there's a brain in terms of clusters of nerves. It's really, it's... there's a heart brain, which is independent. So it's not a substation of the brain in the head, and this heart brain is actually interested in creating coherence for your experience, or for your bodily coherence, which then is, of course, experiential. The brain is somehow following the brain in the head. Which is interesting, you know? Which then again brings us back to these old ideas that the heart is the leader and the mind is the faithful servant. The mind is the faithful servant. You need a mind to accomplish plans, but the heart is the leader. And then you realize, hey, wow, we're just understanding that our biology is made in a way that the heart is the leader and the mind is the faithful servant. But if we don't know that this should be the case, then we do a lot of terrible things. We interfere with the heart as being the leader, and we're all totally stressed out—most of us. And you can de-stress by allowing your heart to lead. So this little mini-exercise we did at the beginning is one of the exercises those scientific folks are suggesting, which then are not very different from all spiritual practices, you know? You can sink into your heart without knowing, without having a plan. We all want to improve our lives, and then we make plans, try to analyze. We analyze, for example, romantic relationships. We're in this relationship, and somehow it makes us unhappy. Then we start to analyze, and we write these balance sheets. But we do it with the mind instead of the heart.
But our heart is there, and it has the power. We live in a society that has forgotten that. We know only that it's not rational in terms of the rational mind. It's very different, but we know it. And I find this, I find this so revolutionary.
Virginia Vigliar:
I mean, I find it interesting, like, I know you said sometimes, like, "Oh, it's what I feel," and I don't need to prove it with, you know, science or whatever. But I do think that humans, or like, the mix of having something grounded and materialized somehow, and that it feels tangible becomes super important to us. Not that one doesn't exist without the other, but I think those things complement each other. And I think that's actually something that I find super interesting. And, you know, for example, the heart is apparently the first... I have a friend who's pregnant, and in the first few weeks, she said, "Oh, I can already hear the heartbeat," because apparently the heart is one of the first things that forms in the embryo. And I found that so beautiful. And I was like, it really is the leader, you know? It's the basis of everything.
Andreas Weber:
Yeah? So the embryo, in a way, at a certain early stage, is only a heart.
Virginia Vigliar:
Yeah, exactly. It's so beautiful.
Andreas Weber:
And, I mean, there's a whole story, and that's something I'm developing in understanding. It's to really understand how and in what way the heart is giving us our lives. So the heart is the leader by offering me the next beat, which keeps me alive. The next beat is not a given. It's a gift. Yeah, and we start like this, and other living beings also start like this. The heart has a profound role as the provider of the gift of life. And I find this so incredibly... you know, it's just so exciting—goosebumps. Creating excitement is, if you look at it from a biological or phenomenological scientific standpoint, then you see that the old traditions were right. The heart is the one who provides it. It provides life to you with every beat. You receive the gift of life with every beat of your heart. Isn't that crazy? You're suspended in this open web of connections, and you receive the gift of life from your heart right now. So unconditionally, you just receive it. And so we could actually, you know, we could just sit down and be grateful for this the whole day, and dissolve in ecstasy for this because this is profoundly about what this reality is about. It's such a profound experience of what this reality is about, and we don't pay attention at all because our whole culture has moved away from this. We all know our heartbeat. Not in every moment, but several times a day, we feel that our heart is beating, and the heartbeat is a gift of life—from the life-desiring... Oh, and we have it in our chest. I can't... I can't understand it. I find it fascinating. And there's also the limit of rational understanding because this is an experience.
If you sink into this, if you meditate on this, if you start to practice with this, it's a profound experience that will change you and change your outlook on reality, and will actually make everything so much easier. Because, you know, if everything starts with a free gift, why hustle?
Virginia Vigliar:
Never laugh when you have a cough? Oh, poor thing. I think there's also so many lessons from the heart and how it functions there. One of our teachers, Abigail Rose Clark, who does our course Remember About the Body, has this whole chapter about how the heart teaches us to rest because for every heartbeat, there's like a moment of pause, and then it starts again. There's so much we can say about this. I'm really excited about the course I'm going to lead. The last 10 minutes, some people have asked questions. But the last question I wanted to ask you...
Andreas Weber:
Maybe I'll give a 10-minute answer now, yeah.
Virginia Vigliar:
Maybe it's a tender question. So, yes, okay, what do we do when we are not loved or don't feel loved?
Andreas Weber:
Yeah? Yeah, thank you. That's something I've asked myself for many times, long times. And, you know, there's this beautiful sentence. It's one of the most compelling sentences in Bell Hooks' book. The sentence I remember most vividly is that she says, "Most of us were wounded where we would experience love." So that's about a wound in the organ with which we know what love is. And so we need to go deeper, I would say. And I've been thinking a lot about this, and in the way you're coming back to the beginning of the conversation, when I understood that I could love, and that was more important than being loved. It wasn't actually even... you know, kids can be very cruel to their parents. They can really show you that they are not interested in you at all in this moment, and it doesn't even matter. So, you know, I would say the thing which needs to be developed, which needs to be polished, is our ability to love. Or, in a very short form, if you feel that you're not loved, love. Love. It doesn't sound easy, but that's the way. That's, according to my experience, the way. But it's not easy, of course, and it is not meant to be easy, but it is meant to happen. It is meant to happen that we all love. That's our role. Our role is to love. I'm actually giving a 10-minute answer. One last sentence, a quote from an Egyptian political scientist, Up to A Side, he said, "The ecological role of the human is love, giving love." That's our role. That's our job. So, that's what we need to do. So, going there as quickly as possible, that's the answer.
Virginia Vigliar:
I mean, you think we have some really sweet questions? One, I’m going up. One is, thank you so much. I’m very appreciative that you’re offering this webinar. How do you think of rhythm and music repetition as part of love and hearts?
Andreas Weber:
Of course, yes. I mean, very good question. I’m always listening to music while I’m writing, listening to a lot of music. And music is a flow of seizing and swelling as life is, so music is life somehow. And of course, it's very close, and it's very important. I’m not connected to the Sufis who are dancing or chanting, but I’m more with the silent Sufis. But of course, it’s very big in Sufism, music. There’s a quote on the grave of Max Broch, a German composer of classical music: "Music is the language of God." Very simple, but I think it's true. You can't analyze music. You cannot rationally analyze music. You can't do it. You can analyze its notation, its technicalities, but the impact of music, rhythm—everything musical—on our soul is not analyzable. Why is this particular cadence moving me to the bone, to my heart? You can't explain it, but you can immerse yourself in it, or even create it. Some people can, and yeah.
Virginia Vigliar:
So, Ayan asks that you mentioned your interest in Sufi philosophy and mysticism, and I would love to know if you've read into Islam and Turkish roots of Sufism, especially about Shams and Rumi. And I would love to know a few books that you’ve read.
Andreas Weber:
Yeah, so just, yeah, I mean, I would actually, Rumi is very profound, and he's always writing about the heart. There's this little book of new Rumi translations by a lady which is very good.
Virginia Vigliar:
She’s the teacher, by Halle?
Andreas Weber:
Let me see...
Virginia Vigliar:
That would be quite a nice coincidence. Sorry for the interruption.
Andreas Weber:
Of course, you've got all the great... This one.
Virginia Vigliar:
Her name’s Halle, yes.
Andreas Weber:
I need to take the course. Yeah. Rumi writes, on page 75, “Your naked freedom is your shield.” This is all about love and its powers, and it's a statement about the heart. That's a fantastic book. I would also recommend the thorough translation by Kabir Helminski. He translated the whole Masnavi, and he's a Sufi himself. He's done a wonderful job with the translation. We all know the Coleman Barks translation of Rumi, which is very free, very beautiful, but also very free. You should have several books side by side on your table. It’s a whole universe. Rumi is also an example of the power of love. He was this orthodox theologian, well-respected, incredibly well-read, and dry. Then, he meets this traveling dervish, Shams of Tabriz, who puts the spark of love in Rumi's heart. It’s not the spark of romantic love, but divine love. Rumi said, "Then I burned, and I burned, and I burned," and he completely burned away. He gave himself completely, and the deal was easy because he received God completely in return. This is the deeper layer of love.
Virginia Vigliar:
Yeah, and Beatrice, or Beatrice, I don’t know, asks, is there a book or article that you can direct us to read more on love and Kashmir Shaivism?
Andreas Weber:
Kashmir Shaivism? That’s actually interesting. There’s a book by Christopher Wallace, who is a specialist and spiritual teacher. I recommend his work. And, of course, the classic on Kashmir Shaivism is by Lillian Silbern, a French mystic. It's in French, but there is an English book about her mystical life. Christopher Wallace is very interesting. However, there’s always the danger of misunderstanding that these older traditions are not about the mind or consciousness. They are about God—about Shiva. That’s why it's called Shaivism. We need to recognize the imminence of the Divine in these traditions. This is why it’s essential to study them as they bring us closer to love.
